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symbioidljThis is a little reply I sent to my mom regarding a bullshit e-mail she sent me blaming Clinton for not being hard on Osama. A lot of it is laced with Biblical and Christian shit, but I used that, because she IS a christian, and I wanted to try to not sound like a hardcore anarchist fundy, and tried to reach out in a spirit of unity to urge thinking, rational thought, and moderation, and a willingness to listen to all sides(as I said in one of my last posts) So without further ado, here is the text of the mail. Please read...
Romans 12: 18-21 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head; Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Galatians 5:16-26 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Matthew 5:9:"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."
Matthew 5: 38-48
[38]"You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
[40] and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well;
[41] and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
[42] Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.
[43]"You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
[45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
[47] And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
[48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 6:12
[12] So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Luke 6:26-38
[26] "Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.
[27]
"But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
[28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
[29] To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.
[30] Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again.
[31] And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
[32]
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
[33] And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
[34] And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
[35] But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.
[36] Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
[37]
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
[38] give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back."
Luke 6:41-42
[41] Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
[42] Or how can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
Deuteronomy 5:17
[17] "`You shall not kill.
--------------
re: the speck verses (ie: look at what we did in history, and how we supported the taliban and osama and, yes... saddam in the 80s)
-------------------
According to this 1998 interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the CIA's intervention in Afghanistan preceded the 1979 Soviet invasion. This decision of the Carter Administration in 1979 to intervene and destabilise Afghanistan is the root cause of Afghanistan's destruction as a nation.
M.C.
The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser
Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998
Posted at globalresearch.ca 15 October 2001
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.
B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.
----------
Also, see this internal memo to president cart: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/20/documents/brez.carter/
WHAT IS TO BE DONE?
What follows are some preliminary thoughts, which need to be discussed more fully:
A. It is essential that Afghanistani resistance continues. This means more money as well as arms shipments to the rebels, and some technical advice;
B. To make the above possible we must both reassure Pakistan and encourage it to help the rebels. This will require a review of our policy toward Pakistan, more guarantees to it, more arms aid.
C. We should encourage the Chinese to help the rebels also.
D. We should concert with Islamic countries both a propaganda campaign and in a covert action campaign to help the rebels;
---
These rebels are the now infamous Taleban, and, yes, Osama.
Let us stop fomenting revolutions and wars, for that which we sow, we shall(and have) truly reaped. Please note, I am NOT absolutely NOT condoning either Osama or Saddam, or Kim Jong Il or any other tyrant(including the US supported tyrannies in Turkey(yes, they oppress their Kurdish population, what we tell Saddam not to do(ok, he used chemical weapons, which is just wrong and evil) but they do not let them speak their language, they have no voice in Turkey.) What I am saying, is not that we "deserve" it. Nobody deserves, no American, no Iraqi, no Afghani, no-one deserves to be killed, slaughtered in a war. What I am saying is that we need to start looking at the past behaviors we have engaged in, and see what we need to do to change those behaviors. It isn't because Clinton was "soft" on Osama that we got nailed. It was because 1) we funded and trained Osama and his Mujahadeen to fend off soviet power. and 2) we kept our forces in Saudi Arabia, enabling Osama to see us as "an occupying force" OK, so now what? What is our occupation of Iraq going to do to these fanatical muslims? Not all muslims are fanatics, but what about the ones that can be pushed over the edge?
I am not going to say that Iraq won't be better off if we hold the country as an occupation. Even though I don't like the idea, yes, I will admit that even a limited form of democracy such that we would bring, even if, in my opinion, which may or may not be factually true, it's merely to empower US national interests, and isn't necessarily for the Iraqi freedom... So don't think I think the Iraqi's are better off under Saddam. He's a cruel vindictive tyrant. All I'm asking is a little thought. A little concern towards what the future holds.
"The first shall be last." We, America, ARE first. And if we continue to let our pride act as it does, we must heed those scriptures which say "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall" The twin towers, two very large, vain-glorious structures, boasting about American strength, became victims(and the poor thousands in and around the area who suffered this inhuman attack), because they were the first, the biggest, the most powerful. Let us be humble and meek like the Great One so long ago. Let us not be boastful and proud and arrogant. Let us learn to love even our enemies. WWJD indeed? Would he drop bombs? Let us learn to love.
I urge everyone, whether you are for the war or against it, to now turn your attention to the process of rebuilding in love and compassion. Let us give money to help the Iraqi's... Bush has given us tax cuts, on the basis that this will help spur compassionate giving. "Compassionate Conservatism"... If that is what he preaches, and if you agree with Bush, then do something. Please give money, or if you can't afford money, if you have skills to make blankets and quilts or food donations or something else... Find ways to contribute to both Iraq and Afghanistan. It is up to us to help the world in the aftermath of these events. If we do not stand by and help rebuild, we will merely let loose more disorder, chaos and vengeance back upon us.
This is a very difficult issue. But all I'm asking is for each and everyone to seriously sit down and think, and pray, over what the right course of action is. I am not to tell you whether war is wrong. I can only leave that to you and your conscience. I can only urge you to research history and see where we have gone wrong. The only way to grow, both as individuals and as a nation, is to look at the mistakes we have made, and instead of belligerantly ignoring them, or making excuses, that we learn... LEARN from the past, ask forgiveness for our sins, and work to make a better world, in the spirit of Peace, Love, Truth and Understanding.
We are always forced to make simplistic statements, those who oppose the war or those who are for it:
"The war is about oil! No blood for oil!" "Down with Yankee imperialism" etc...
or...
"Love it or leave it!" "If you disagree you should shut up!" "You don't support our boys, you are unpatriotic" etc....
Well, the time is to move on. We need to shut up and grow up. All of us. We need to look at the reality. We need to see what we can do to make the world a better place. Let us all start asking questions... I don't think the war is *just* about oil. I believe oil plays a major role, but I believe that there is an element of truth that they want the Iraqi people to be free. But we must ask hard questions... Where do we stop? What is the next tyrant who must fall? How do we prevent this push for freedom and democracy from raising new terrorists in places that resent US influence...
There is much to be asked and questioned. From ALL sides of the fence. Stop just thinking "Those damned liberals" or "Greedy conservatives" or any of those dichotomies. Please, let's all work together to make the world better. As citizens of America, we CAN make a difference, we CAN agree that we should provide aid to those suffering in other countries, and not just in other countries, but let us work towards making a stronger America, an America that isn't run by business, but by love and compassion. An America where Americans care for one another. An America where we share, not just with our neighbor, not just with a stranger, but with our Enemies.
Let us stop blaming. I think there are mistakes we have made in the past(and yes, I think both Democrats AND Republicans have played a role in these affairs), but let's stop pointing fingers. Let's stop playing silly politics, and move on with life and the realities ahead.
I don't know exactly what I'm saying, but just one word: Love.
Romans 12: 18-21 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head; Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Galatians 5:16-26 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Matthew 5:9:"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."
Matthew 5: 38-48
[38]"You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
[40] and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well;
[41] and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
[42] Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.
[43]"You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
[45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
[47] And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
[48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 6:12
[12] So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Luke 6:26-38
[26] "Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.
[27]
"But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
[28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
[29] To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.
[30] Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again.
[31] And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
[32]
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
[33] And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
[34] And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
[35] But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.
[36] Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
[37]
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
[38] give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back."
Luke 6:41-42
[41] Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
[42] Or how can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
Deuteronomy 5:17
[17] "`You shall not kill.
--------------
re: the speck verses (ie: look at what we did in history, and how we supported the taliban and osama and, yes... saddam in the 80s)
-------------------
According to this 1998 interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the CIA's intervention in Afghanistan preceded the 1979 Soviet invasion. This decision of the Carter Administration in 1979 to intervene and destabilise Afghanistan is the root cause of Afghanistan's destruction as a nation.
M.C.
The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser
Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998
Posted at globalresearch.ca 15 October 2001
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.
B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.
----------
Also, see this internal memo to president cart: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/20/documents/brez.carter/
WHAT IS TO BE DONE?
What follows are some preliminary thoughts, which need to be discussed more fully:
A. It is essential that Afghanistani resistance continues. This means more money as well as arms shipments to the rebels, and some technical advice;
B. To make the above possible we must both reassure Pakistan and encourage it to help the rebels. This will require a review of our policy toward Pakistan, more guarantees to it, more arms aid.
C. We should encourage the Chinese to help the rebels also.
D. We should concert with Islamic countries both a propaganda campaign and in a covert action campaign to help the rebels;
---
These rebels are the now infamous Taleban, and, yes, Osama.
Let us stop fomenting revolutions and wars, for that which we sow, we shall(and have) truly reaped. Please note, I am NOT absolutely NOT condoning either Osama or Saddam, or Kim Jong Il or any other tyrant(including the US supported tyrannies in Turkey(yes, they oppress their Kurdish population, what we tell Saddam not to do(ok, he used chemical weapons, which is just wrong and evil) but they do not let them speak their language, they have no voice in Turkey.) What I am saying, is not that we "deserve" it. Nobody deserves, no American, no Iraqi, no Afghani, no-one deserves to be killed, slaughtered in a war. What I am saying is that we need to start looking at the past behaviors we have engaged in, and see what we need to do to change those behaviors. It isn't because Clinton was "soft" on Osama that we got nailed. It was because 1) we funded and trained Osama and his Mujahadeen to fend off soviet power. and 2) we kept our forces in Saudi Arabia, enabling Osama to see us as "an occupying force" OK, so now what? What is our occupation of Iraq going to do to these fanatical muslims? Not all muslims are fanatics, but what about the ones that can be pushed over the edge?
I am not going to say that Iraq won't be better off if we hold the country as an occupation. Even though I don't like the idea, yes, I will admit that even a limited form of democracy such that we would bring, even if, in my opinion, which may or may not be factually true, it's merely to empower US national interests, and isn't necessarily for the Iraqi freedom... So don't think I think the Iraqi's are better off under Saddam. He's a cruel vindictive tyrant. All I'm asking is a little thought. A little concern towards what the future holds.
"The first shall be last." We, America, ARE first. And if we continue to let our pride act as it does, we must heed those scriptures which say "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall" The twin towers, two very large, vain-glorious structures, boasting about American strength, became victims(and the poor thousands in and around the area who suffered this inhuman attack), because they were the first, the biggest, the most powerful. Let us be humble and meek like the Great One so long ago. Let us not be boastful and proud and arrogant. Let us learn to love even our enemies. WWJD indeed? Would he drop bombs? Let us learn to love.
I urge everyone, whether you are for the war or against it, to now turn your attention to the process of rebuilding in love and compassion. Let us give money to help the Iraqi's... Bush has given us tax cuts, on the basis that this will help spur compassionate giving. "Compassionate Conservatism"... If that is what he preaches, and if you agree with Bush, then do something. Please give money, or if you can't afford money, if you have skills to make blankets and quilts or food donations or something else... Find ways to contribute to both Iraq and Afghanistan. It is up to us to help the world in the aftermath of these events. If we do not stand by and help rebuild, we will merely let loose more disorder, chaos and vengeance back upon us.
This is a very difficult issue. But all I'm asking is for each and everyone to seriously sit down and think, and pray, over what the right course of action is. I am not to tell you whether war is wrong. I can only leave that to you and your conscience. I can only urge you to research history and see where we have gone wrong. The only way to grow, both as individuals and as a nation, is to look at the mistakes we have made, and instead of belligerantly ignoring them, or making excuses, that we learn... LEARN from the past, ask forgiveness for our sins, and work to make a better world, in the spirit of Peace, Love, Truth and Understanding.
We are always forced to make simplistic statements, those who oppose the war or those who are for it:
"The war is about oil! No blood for oil!" "Down with Yankee imperialism" etc...
or...
"Love it or leave it!" "If you disagree you should shut up!" "You don't support our boys, you are unpatriotic" etc....
Well, the time is to move on. We need to shut up and grow up. All of us. We need to look at the reality. We need to see what we can do to make the world a better place. Let us all start asking questions... I don't think the war is *just* about oil. I believe oil plays a major role, but I believe that there is an element of truth that they want the Iraqi people to be free. But we must ask hard questions... Where do we stop? What is the next tyrant who must fall? How do we prevent this push for freedom and democracy from raising new terrorists in places that resent US influence...
There is much to be asked and questioned. From ALL sides of the fence. Stop just thinking "Those damned liberals" or "Greedy conservatives" or any of those dichotomies. Please, let's all work together to make the world better. As citizens of America, we CAN make a difference, we CAN agree that we should provide aid to those suffering in other countries, and not just in other countries, but let us work towards making a stronger America, an America that isn't run by business, but by love and compassion. An America where Americans care for one another. An America where we share, not just with our neighbor, not just with a stranger, but with our Enemies.
Let us stop blaming. I think there are mistakes we have made in the past(and yes, I think both Democrats AND Republicans have played a role in these affairs), but let's stop pointing fingers. Let's stop playing silly politics, and move on with life and the realities ahead.
I don't know exactly what I'm saying, but just one word: Love.
