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symbioidljWell, to everyone who cares...
1) apologies for the length.
2) I'm replying to someones post on electronic music, who said, essentially, that if it's not "live instruments"(ie: non-electronic) then it's not "real" music. This is my response. If you care to read or comment, feel free. If you wanna skip, then go ahead.
3) I'm posting it here, cuz a) it's too long to post as a comment, and b) I think it would be good for other people to read if they'd want to, anyways....
-------
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm trying to merely convey where I'm coming from, and electronic music is most certainly a sore spot with me. So if it sounded harsh, please accept my apologies. But look beyond the tone if possible, and see the points I'm trying to make.
------
Yes. All people are music. The world is music. If you think techno isn't funky, listen again, my friend. Pick up some Juan Atkins. Listen to some Acid Jazz. Listen to any Electro-Funk and tell me that they are not the inheritors of funk. If George Clinton can get into it, anyone should be able to. If you're talking "trance" music, then yeah, that's not funky. But if you're talking techno, house, acid-jazz, electro-funk, two-step. Then I beg to differ. Noise is music. Ask John Cage. Join the 21st century rock-n-roll boy. *smirks*
"ravers (or the musicians that like to think of themselves as such) are never going to make it big"
1) Most electronic musicians don't call themselves ravers.
2) by calling them musicians, you are inherently defeating your own purpose. Maybe you should call them sound engineers(which we would appreciate just as much as musicians)
3) The assumption is that "making it big" is good, is not necessarily what a lot of people think. "Making it big" is another word for "selling-out". I'd rather my music stay somewhat underground, and it really scares me if someone does make it big. Look at Moby, look at Prodigy, look at Fat Boy Slim... Just to name a few of the latest, greatest hot "electronica" group out there.
Afro-futurism is inherent in a lot of the funkier music. It's the same vibe that George Clinton disseminated, and before him, Sun-Ra. Techno/Electro-funk is inheriting a tradition that is actually quite grand. The philosophy behind it all. Getting "back to the future" -- through the UFO, the technology of the machine. (Swing down sweet chariot stop, and let me ride)... There's a whole philosophy out there, waiting to be heard. Listen. Dig deeper, and you can find it.
Just because Blink 182 can play their own guitars doesn't make them "punk", anymore than someone who can pick up a drum-machine makes them "techno-artists"... There is a degree of skill involved to really make *good* electronic music. And yeah, even Moby is talented, even though I think he sold out.
Ultimately, electronica has it's origins in neo-classical/modern classical music. The people who started this all out: John Cage, Phillip Glass, Karlheinz Stockhausen... To name a couple... They are all classically trained. They wanted to explore the modern world, through the sounds contained there-in. Think of that famed song(I honestly can't think of the name now, but would know if someone told me)... The one where like Bambi is in a field, and the music is wafting lightly through the air... That music is supposed to give off the "vibe" off that field. Serence, gentle, calm. What the modern composer has done with "noise" as music, is to look at the modern world, and re-emulate it, in the same sense that the classic deer-in-field song is trying to re-emulate the field through traditional instruments. The only reason Beethoven didn't use samplers, was because they weren't invented yet. Were they around, I'm almost positive he would have fucked around with one.
What is music? What is sound? Where does sound come from? Sound is merely vibration. Whether it's synthesized, or some asshole blowing through a trumpet. The origin of music, began with the beat. The earliest sound was the striking of sticks. The modern version of that is the striking of electrons through a wire, and eventually hitting a flexible material(the speaker) which vibrates. Just like fire can be created by rubbing sticks together, so is electricity the push of electrons, friction, through wire.(these are mere analogies, not technical observations) Light/energy/sound are all vibrations made manifest. The universe is alive with vibration, every molecule, every electron is moving.
The creation of sound with electronic music is merely the way humans have evolved. In the same way that we've gone from fire, to electricity or nuclear power. From stone tools to nano-technology, that can move molecules around instead of just cutting a big lump all at once. History is about refining, getting to smaller levels.
It's been said that we live in a mythic world if we believe the music we listen to isn't electronic. When you pop in a CD it's been edited... mastered... the quality reduced... Binary sound is much more finite than pure analog sound. So only if you go to a live concert will you hear "pure" music. Any other thing has been electronically reduced. The only difference is the origin of the sounds. After that, there's so much processing that goes on, that the original is lost. Whether it be "live" instrumentation, or "synthesized" sounds.
But then, if you go to a live concert, you're probably going to be listening to the musician through microphones, and speakers, and amps, and PA systems... This introduces noise into a system. This noise is electronic. What about the "fuzz-box" the fancy wah-wah peddle? Is Jimi Hendrix now "not a musician" because he used the wah paddle, and distortion? The only way to hear pure music as you say pure is, is to go to an acoustic concert, with no external sound re-inforcing equipment.
Music is about conveying a feeling. Some music is to convey peaceful feelings(certain classical pieces, ambient music), some is very complex(baroque, IDM), some is very power inducing(Romantic, Gabba, Noise, Industrial), some is meant to just dance to(ancient tribal music, techno, trance, house)... What's important is what's conveyed. Not how it's conveyed. And if something isn't being conveyed to you, that's fine. It's not your "thing"... But to say it's not music is inherently unjust, and untrue. I personally hate all this pop shit(ie: britney, n'sync, christina, etc...), but I don't say they're not music. They've "Made it big" and that's exactly why I would never want to...
The original concepts of Raves were about community and vibe. Not about being big. The music was anonymous. Most often, the DJ wasn't superhuge, but the bigger Raves got, the more of a cult of personality that occurred, and now you have mega-djs like Paul Oakenfold, and Digweed, and Sasha, so that was, at least to me, a bad consequence of Raves becoming big...
So umm. yeah. Sorry it's so long, but I think these are the main points. If you disagree, that's ok. I know you probably haven't studied all this history.(And I'm certainly not a master of it, it's merely what I've gathered through the years), and maybe you just have a different point of view. Maybe the music doesn't move you the way it moves me. There's so many types of electronic music that it's unfair to lump it all together, in the same way it's unfair to lump The Stones with The Beatles, with Zeppelin, with Judas Priest, with Metallica, with Blink 182... So maybe you're speaking of one particular type of electronic music, then alright, but don't dis all electronic, just because you think it's not "pure music"
1) apologies for the length.
2) I'm replying to someones post on electronic music, who said, essentially, that if it's not "live instruments"(ie: non-electronic) then it's not "real" music. This is my response. If you care to read or comment, feel free. If you wanna skip, then go ahead.
3) I'm posting it here, cuz a) it's too long to post as a comment, and b) I think it would be good for other people to read if they'd want to, anyways....
-------
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm trying to merely convey where I'm coming from, and electronic music is most certainly a sore spot with me. So if it sounded harsh, please accept my apologies. But look beyond the tone if possible, and see the points I'm trying to make.
------
Yes. All people are music. The world is music. If you think techno isn't funky, listen again, my friend. Pick up some Juan Atkins. Listen to some Acid Jazz. Listen to any Electro-Funk and tell me that they are not the inheritors of funk. If George Clinton can get into it, anyone should be able to. If you're talking "trance" music, then yeah, that's not funky. But if you're talking techno, house, acid-jazz, electro-funk, two-step. Then I beg to differ. Noise is music. Ask John Cage. Join the 21st century rock-n-roll boy. *smirks*
"ravers (or the musicians that like to think of themselves as such) are never going to make it big"
1) Most electronic musicians don't call themselves ravers.
2) by calling them musicians, you are inherently defeating your own purpose. Maybe you should call them sound engineers(which we would appreciate just as much as musicians)
3) The assumption is that "making it big" is good, is not necessarily what a lot of people think. "Making it big" is another word for "selling-out". I'd rather my music stay somewhat underground, and it really scares me if someone does make it big. Look at Moby, look at Prodigy, look at Fat Boy Slim... Just to name a few of the latest, greatest hot "electronica" group out there.
Afro-futurism is inherent in a lot of the funkier music. It's the same vibe that George Clinton disseminated, and before him, Sun-Ra. Techno/Electro-funk is inheriting a tradition that is actually quite grand. The philosophy behind it all. Getting "back to the future" -- through the UFO, the technology of the machine. (Swing down sweet chariot stop, and let me ride)... There's a whole philosophy out there, waiting to be heard. Listen. Dig deeper, and you can find it.
Just because Blink 182 can play their own guitars doesn't make them "punk", anymore than someone who can pick up a drum-machine makes them "techno-artists"... There is a degree of skill involved to really make *good* electronic music. And yeah, even Moby is talented, even though I think he sold out.
Ultimately, electronica has it's origins in neo-classical/modern classical music. The people who started this all out: John Cage, Phillip Glass, Karlheinz Stockhausen... To name a couple... They are all classically trained. They wanted to explore the modern world, through the sounds contained there-in. Think of that famed song(I honestly can't think of the name now, but would know if someone told me)... The one where like Bambi is in a field, and the music is wafting lightly through the air... That music is supposed to give off the "vibe" off that field. Serence, gentle, calm. What the modern composer has done with "noise" as music, is to look at the modern world, and re-emulate it, in the same sense that the classic deer-in-field song is trying to re-emulate the field through traditional instruments. The only reason Beethoven didn't use samplers, was because they weren't invented yet. Were they around, I'm almost positive he would have fucked around with one.
What is music? What is sound? Where does sound come from? Sound is merely vibration. Whether it's synthesized, or some asshole blowing through a trumpet. The origin of music, began with the beat. The earliest sound was the striking of sticks. The modern version of that is the striking of electrons through a wire, and eventually hitting a flexible material(the speaker) which vibrates. Just like fire can be created by rubbing sticks together, so is electricity the push of electrons, friction, through wire.(these are mere analogies, not technical observations) Light/energy/sound are all vibrations made manifest. The universe is alive with vibration, every molecule, every electron is moving.
The creation of sound with electronic music is merely the way humans have evolved. In the same way that we've gone from fire, to electricity or nuclear power. From stone tools to nano-technology, that can move molecules around instead of just cutting a big lump all at once. History is about refining, getting to smaller levels.
It's been said that we live in a mythic world if we believe the music we listen to isn't electronic. When you pop in a CD it's been edited... mastered... the quality reduced... Binary sound is much more finite than pure analog sound. So only if you go to a live concert will you hear "pure" music. Any other thing has been electronically reduced. The only difference is the origin of the sounds. After that, there's so much processing that goes on, that the original is lost. Whether it be "live" instrumentation, or "synthesized" sounds.
But then, if you go to a live concert, you're probably going to be listening to the musician through microphones, and speakers, and amps, and PA systems... This introduces noise into a system. This noise is electronic. What about the "fuzz-box" the fancy wah-wah peddle? Is Jimi Hendrix now "not a musician" because he used the wah paddle, and distortion? The only way to hear pure music as you say pure is, is to go to an acoustic concert, with no external sound re-inforcing equipment.
Music is about conveying a feeling. Some music is to convey peaceful feelings(certain classical pieces, ambient music), some is very complex(baroque, IDM), some is very power inducing(Romantic, Gabba, Noise, Industrial), some is meant to just dance to(ancient tribal music, techno, trance, house)... What's important is what's conveyed. Not how it's conveyed. And if something isn't being conveyed to you, that's fine. It's not your "thing"... But to say it's not music is inherently unjust, and untrue. I personally hate all this pop shit(ie: britney, n'sync, christina, etc...), but I don't say they're not music. They've "Made it big" and that's exactly why I would never want to...
The original concepts of Raves were about community and vibe. Not about being big. The music was anonymous. Most often, the DJ wasn't superhuge, but the bigger Raves got, the more of a cult of personality that occurred, and now you have mega-djs like Paul Oakenfold, and Digweed, and Sasha, so that was, at least to me, a bad consequence of Raves becoming big...
So umm. yeah. Sorry it's so long, but I think these are the main points. If you disagree, that's ok. I know you probably haven't studied all this history.(And I'm certainly not a master of it, it's merely what I've gathered through the years), and maybe you just have a different point of view. Maybe the music doesn't move you the way it moves me. There's so many types of electronic music that it's unfair to lump it all together, in the same way it's unfair to lump The Stones with The Beatles, with Zeppelin, with Judas Priest, with Metallica, with Blink 182... So maybe you're speaking of one particular type of electronic music, then alright, but don't dis all electronic, just because you think it's not "pure music"
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silence over written text (or merely numbers for those of you that can see "beyond" the text")
Date: 2003-01-19 12:06 pm (UTC)i respect all music. sure i may not like some of it (most newer country or most pop -even though i will usually like it after time- and some of the stuff i'm currently into)
i thought i was making myself clear in the fact that i LIKE it. guess not though.
*sigh*
sorry to "upset" even though it seems to have brought some passion out of you and i think that is a beautiful thing my "friend"...night night.
Re: silence over written text (or merely numbers for those of you that can see "beyond" the text")
Date: 2003-01-19 12:30 pm (UTC)I'd like to thank you for making me think, even though you do end up agreeing, it helped me to get some words out that haven't come out that way in a long time. BTW, Rosemary and I are gonna have to take you out to dinner one of these days for the ol' xmas present...
Thanks for clarifying yourself. And don't ever be afraid to speak. The only way to learn to express yourself is by doing it. You have a unique way of expressing yourself, and you can only grow through the use of that ability. If you silence yourself, you only inhibit that ability(trust me, my mouth's been running non-stop ever since I was like... 2?) So exercise that ability. Don't be afraid to speak. Don't be afraid to take the time to explain yourself. As you do, you learn more on how to communicate, and that's growth. Peace.
Just some FYI from a music major
Date: 2003-01-19 07:39 pm (UTC)No, I am not making this up - I just went over it in my Survey of Classical Music class last week.
And it's not like it's simple to play electronics, anymore than it is to play other instruments. If it were, I'd be a lot further along than I am.
This is an excellent rant...one of the best ones I have seen regarding music in a long time. It reminds me a bit of another debate I have had with some people about the definition of beauty and/ or art.
It's all art to me.~8)
yay to you, and keep up the groove!
no subject
Date: 2003-01-19 10:00 pm (UTC)Or are you just saying that someone like Sasha let fame get to his head and isn't producing good works anymore? Or that Sasha never produced good works and it's unfortunate that someone like him is now popular?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
no subject
Date: 2003-01-19 10:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-01-20 07:54 am (UTC)